Unsuck DC Metro: The Silver Line's Dark Lining

@VeggieTart · 626 weeks ago

I think the way the tracks are configured would make that tough, but surely it can't be worse than trying to turn the train around at Stadium/Armory.

BradK · 626 weeks ago

I was just trying to walk through that rationale as well... the problem is that there is too much distance between EFC and the double cross-over right next to WFC. i.e. a train will be going on the wrong side of the tracks for too long, therefore prohibiting another train from moving towards EFC.
Honestly, this is a better question for Sand Box John on Railroad.net, but I suspect that it is a distance issue... IMO, they should immediately begin building another corssover near EFC and consider turning trains around there.

Stevey Jones · 626 weeks ago

They haven't done any rebuilding work at East Falls. It is still just two tracks. To terminate a line (or send them back the other way), you generally need a third track (pocket track) where you can turn them around quickly. East Falls is a small platform too - they're probably worried about crowding.

Also, there is/was pressure from the airport authority to provide a "one seat ride" to Dulles - that is, if they ever build phase two of the silver line.

Man oh man, am I glad I moved off of the orange line. However, if you're in the East Falls-Rosslyn Corridor, things won't actually change much for you (actually you should get an extra train or two).

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Jason · 626 weeks ago

Except for people who need to go to, say, Pentagon City. Especially since Metro has this uncanny ability to put you in the station JUST in time to see your connection pull away.

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Heather · 626 weeks ago

Exactly. I now have to take the Blue Line to the Pentagon every evening, from Rosslyn, so I can slug home. The fact that there will be 12 minutes between Blue Line trains, is totally unacceptable to me. I may now have to try to find a bus from Rosslyn to the Pentagon, that won't take so danged long that I can't utilize the slug lines.

Just one more way Metro screws us over every day. IF there is a hell, and I doubt there is one, but if there is, I hope all the Metro execs will have a special place there just for them.

Stan Desselscum · 626 weeks ago

Yes! I hope they BURN too!

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Red Line · 626 weeks ago

I've never understood this, especially on weekends or in the middle of the day when you have to wait forever for the next train. It shouldn't be so hard for someone at central control to see that the red line and the green line trains each pull into Chinatown at the same time, and tell both of the operators to wait for two minutes.

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Jason · 626 weeks ago

Exactly. But beyond that, the system is not very complicated. There are only three main transfer stations--Metro Center, Gallery Place, and L'Enfant. You only get a few more by including stations like Rosslyn. It should not be that hard to set the headways--especially during the off-peak periods--to either mostly have the connections line up, or at least dump you at the transfer station midway through the other line's headway (so for instance, if taking the Yellow to Gallery Place during 20 minute headways, have the Yellow deposit you when the Red Line will be coming in 10 minutes).

I'd happily take "always arrive midway through the connection headway" if it meant never arriving just as the connecting train was pulling away.

Of course, this is Metro we're talking about...

Heather · 626 weeks ago

I hear you! This almost ALWAYS happens to me, if I'm getting on at Rosslyn and for whatever reason, need the Orange Line. I get down to the platform JUST as it has closed the doors and pulled off. As it is, I have to hurry down those escalators because the Blue Line is so erratic, and I don't know if there will be one when I get down, or will have to wait another 5 minutes.

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Mike · 625 weeks ago

Please, that's nothing. It took 4 weeks of EFC-WFC single tracking service with 24 minute announced headways for Metro to finally realize it is completely absurd that a train should have to wait at WFC to let a westbound train pass. Literally the epitome of non-management.

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Question · 626 weeks ago

Why would you need a third track to turn a train around? Why not a simple switch? That's how pretty much every other railroad in the world manages to have trains pull into a platform from one line and exit the platform onto a different line.

Stevey Jones · 626 weeks ago

Timing, Question.

On a high frequency line, trains SHOULD be passing over the same section of track every 3 minutes, as they do on the red line. This 3 minutes is probably theoretically enough to squeeze a train in to the opposite track and turn it around before the next one comes. I doubt metro wants that, though.

See here: http://goo.gl/maps/CxsFZ

This is just north of silver spring on the red line. Notice the 3 tracks in the middle (the two on the outside are for MARC). The middle track serves as a parking spot for trains that go out of service at silver spring and turn around and head back to Grosvenor.

Question · 626 weeks ago

Scheduled spacing between trains on each track at East Falls Church is every 6 or 8 minutes during rush. That should be loads of time for a train to come in to a platform from the silver line and exit via a switch onto the opposite silver line track. If the orange line actually ran a train every 3 minutes on each track then you might have a point, but they aren't even close to that. And if the trains were really that frequent, no one would be complaining anyway.

Stevey Jones · 626 weeks ago

Fair point (though when I rode orange for 1.5 years I was pretty sure frequency at rush was 4 minutes). There also is a switch directly east of East Falls, I think.

However, I think the actual issue is Metro doesn't want to bring a train in to east falls, dump off about 600 people onto the platform (full train holds 1k), then have those people wait with the EFC commuters for an inbound orange. This would be coupled with people coming from Arlington (and elsewhere), who would be dumped off at EFC to get on a Silver to go to Tysons or Reston. That would be a lot of people on that platform.

Of course, if the Silver terminated at EFC, you would have more room for orange trains Vienna - NC, so those people could be moved quickly, I guess.

@dcjanes · 626 weeks ago

And if a train experiences mechanical difficulties while turning around, it takes down the entire line without the possibility of even single tracking around it.

guest · 626 weeks ago

they call them 'pocket tracks.' us old folks call them sidings. :-)

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karah 81p · 626 weeks ago

Dulles wants single seat? Fine. Let them pay for another set of tracks/Potomac crossing. If they balk it must not be important to them.

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Mike D. · 625 weeks ago

Stop. Trying to blame other riders or agencies (potential or otherwise) beyond Metro. That's exactly what they want to take the eyes off their stupidity.

The fact of the matter is that the Silver Line, for many of us potential riders (Herndon and Reston especially), actually makes our commutes worse too. Right now we have straight shot buses to West Falls. Now we'll have to be on a Metro line (instantly subject to far more dealys) AND have to divert 10 minutes through Tyson's Corner.

Alex B. · 626 weeks ago

What would this solve? Silver Line trains continuing into DC are just like Orange line trains but with a different name.

If the goal would be to reduce the number of Orange line trains so that more Blue trains would fit through the Rosslyn portal, then you'd be back to the same 'ol Orange Crush problems again.

Question · 626 weeks ago

It would allow the orange and blue lines to maintain current service levels and allow the silver line to run trains as often as they wanted (without being limited by the tunnel).

The silver line trains that continue into DC are NOT just like orange line trains to the people who live at the west end of the orange line.

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SarlesSucks · 626 weeks ago

This would not help either as dumping Silver line passengers at EFC and forcing them to board Orange line trains would lead to massive crowds at EFC and full trains into the city from there. It would be nearly impossible to board an inbound Orange line train from the Ballston station through the Foggy Bottom station during rush hour (already difficult from Clarendon in on most mornings) as the trains would be full at EFC. Unfortunately there are no good options due to the incompetence of WMATA. Imagine the huge delays at Rosslyn (which experiences constant switch malfunctions) when there are 2.5 lines going through there instead of 1.5 now.

Stan Desselscum · 626 weeks ago

Metro isn't competent enough to pull that off for longer than a one month period before running one train into another, killing dozens more people.

bet · 626 weeks ago

I believe the Fairfax connector buses will do the work around the airport and they never work in snow, sleet, etc. We are all screwed! Their insurance is the issue.
Better rethink the Fairfax connector doing the Dulles Airport bus work.

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drew · 626 weeks ago

I was at the RAC meeting last night. I asked about expanded parking at EFC. My theory is people from WFC-Vienna might start parking there to offset the delays its going to take from the cutbacks. WMATA doesn't seemed to concerned for this to happen. EFC parking lot is usually full by 8:15am.
I can see not only blue liners pissed but people on the other side of EFC equally mad at WMATA

1 reply · active 626 weeks ago

Stevey Jones · 626 weeks ago

When I used to live out in godforsaken hellhole Chantilly, my wife and I would sometimes drive all the way in to park at West Falls, instead of Vienna, because parking there and driving out 66 was actually faster than waiting around at Vienna (merging onto 66 easier inside the beltway).

However drew, don't forget that most people drive to Vienna solo. You can't proceed inside the beltway on 66 unless you are HOV-2 or more during AM rush. Using other roads like 50 or route 7 to get all the way in to east falls would take forever. I have to agree with WMATA that more people parking at east falls is probably a non-issue.

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Veracity · 626 weeks ago

The planning for the Silver Line was atrocious - did Metro do any real studies on the impacts of shoehorning in the Silver Line trains into an already stressed Orange/Blue passage ways? Why did they not just terminate the Silver Line at Rosslyn (expand the underground station, have the trains purely stop/start at the station and be fully/only Silver Line trains)? Or at least revamp the EFC Station like other commentators have stated here already?

5 replies · active 626 weeks ago

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Jason · 626 weeks ago

As someone else noted, apparently the people in charge of Dulles exerted a lot of pressure for people to be able to take a one-seat ride out to Dulles.

That said, I mostly agree with you, but they should have made EFC the turnaround, not Rosslyn. This way the Silver Line would basically have nothing to do with the Orange/Blue Lines. Best way to do the Silver Line absent another tunnel or bridge over the river for Orange/Blue.

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guest · 626 weeks ago

Of course, the price that silver line riders will have to pay for their "one-seat ride to Dulles" is less frequent trains to/from Dulles, because the silver line will be limited by the tunnel just like the orange and blue lines.

Jason · 626 weeks ago

Yup. It would actually be better for everyone to be able have more frequent service on all three lines, rather than trying to ram everything throug the Rosslyn tunnel.

Suburban Guy · 626 weeks ago

I've been saying the same thing to anyone who would listen the past few years. The fact that it wasn't addressed tells us one thing for certain - the primary objective of the Silver Line was never just to get rail to Dulles, it was to get rail to Tysons Corner.

anon · 626 weeks ago

Scare tactics stopped the Dulles going to the airport and other counties.

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Mary · 626 weeks ago

I certainly think that blue line metro riders should receive discounted fares since we are receiving discounted service. This is ridiculous.

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knows metro · 626 weeks ago

If properly maintained and staffed by a competent workforce, Metro could run 90-second headways.

That they don't tells you a lot about management's confidence in the quality of the workforce --->and the maintenance of the equipment.

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totallyfailed 81p · 626 weeks ago

It really must be something to work for Metro's PR team or one of their PR contractors. "I literally get paid to BS to customers, the public, media and government!"

Future SL Rider · 626 weeks ago

Lets remember WMATA is not one building Silver line its the Aiport so of course it was going to be one seat ride to dulles and it does suck to be on the blue line these days but we all know the issue is too many line on one tunnel at Roslyn, lets get some pressure of better roslyn and second tunnel that would fix a lot of the issues on the VA side of Metro...then again i could be biased since SL will make my life easier

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karah 81p · 626 weeks ago

It looks like the silver line will run twice (10 vs 5) as many trains as the blue through Rosslyn? What makes them so special? Blue was there first.

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mike · 626 weeks ago

As an Orange Line rider from Arlington, this change will not hurt (or may even may things slightly better) for me, but I do feel for my Blue Line brothers and sisters, who are getting royally screwed by Metro's and the local politicians' refusal to acknowledge reality when planning the Silver Line. The Rosslyn bottleneck has been a problem for well over a decade, but they feign surprise at the completely predictable fact that there isn't enough room for Orange, Blue, AND Silver trains to all share the same track. They should have been required to build a new tunnel through DC to separate the Blue and Orange as a condition of being allowed to build the Silver Line -- but if they had faced facts and made that a requirement, Silver never would have been approved.
Blue Line riders should fill out the survey indicating something to the effect of, "I'm planning on coping with the reduced frequency of trains by buying a used Hummer that barely passes emissions tests, and driving it, alone, to 18th and K at 8:30am each and every workday."

2 replies · active 626 weeks ago

Amy · 626 weeks ago

And now these same politicians (or at least reps. Moran and Connelly) want a study to extend the orange line all the way to Centerville and the blue line all the way to Woodbridge. Granted, this isn't the same as adding an entirely new line, but it doesn't change the fact that Metro can't handle the system as it is now. What have these guys been smoking, and how can I get some?

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mike · 626 weeks ago

Exactly, the Centerville and Woodbridge extensions sound like a similar folly. The problem may be that adding new lines, or extensions of the existing lines to new destinations, sounds like an achievement that the politicians can brag about - "Look at me, NOVA, I got you Metro service to [outer suburb]!" They think it wouldn't have the same resonance for their constituents to just be able to say something like, "I got approval of an additional Metro tunnel through DC about 3 blocks from the existing Metro tunnel." Such an additional tunnel would do a lot to relieve crowding and allow the Blue line to operate without having to give priority to the Orange and Silver, but to people who don't ride Metro often, it will just sound like something that benefits only DC residents.
Metro riders need to speak out against proposals to expand the system that don't address the basic overcrowding problem in the core.

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Stan Dessel · 626 weeks ago

Silver is shiny.

You're welcome!

MsKat · 626 weeks ago

Fortunately I don't take the Orange line any more and will try my best not to any time soon. After reading this, I have to ask, weren't the trains implemented to provide a much faster way to get from point A to point B? Most if not all of the rail riders could choose to take buses to get where they are going, but they CHOOSE to take the train, although it is more expensive than the bus, to get them where they are going faster. When I worked in VA, my commute was nearly 2 hours and was mostly on the train, if I had driven it would have been 30-40 minutes, and the bus commute would have been longer than the train by the time I had to wait through more than one transfer, and get through traffic. How dare they suggest to people who choose the train, that maybe they should catch a bus instead? If they wanted to catch a bus believe me they would be on a bus, paying less in fares than they do to ride the train. Since people fought the Silver line so much and for so long, let THEM take the bus and leave the Orange and Blue line service alone, and move on to building the purple line. They've only been talking about that purple line for the past 30 years or so; get it done! (by the way, that Rush+ mess didn't improve anything, from what I see)

1 reply · active 626 weeks ago

Jason · 626 weeks ago

"Rush+" was never supposed to be an improvement. It was a first step in implementing the service changes that would eventually be necessary for the Silver Line.

Unfortunately, they chose to promote it as the second coming of Transit Jesus...probably because noone at Metro knows how to just be honest.

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WordWrestleStessel · 626 weeks ago

The Pope wasn't too good to take a bus; why are you? One person's bus and broken escalator is another's stairway to heaven...

jkuchen · 626 weeks ago

Quick potential correction: should the second sentence end with "Orange Line riders west of East Falls Church will see their service cut dramatically." ?

The perfect non-tunnel solution probably won't happen, but anyone who looks at a subway map of Manhattan could look at the segment from Rosslyn to the Pentagon and put a big S on it. Build new platforms on that rail section away from the Orange and Yellow lines respectively and just run it like the Shuttle train. Then run the Blue/Silver Line from Dulles to Largo and a split Yellow Line covering Virginia a la Rush+.

1 reply · active 626 weeks ago

unsuckdcmetro 92p · 626 weeks ago

Ooops. Yes. WEST of East Falls Church. Fixed. Thanks.

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guest · 626 weeks ago

hmm, and now there's a honkin' huge survey on the wmata site about.... wait for it.... bus livery.

seriously, they're that worried about what color to paint the buses??!

2 replies · active 626 weeks ago

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Doctor Whom · 626 weeks ago

I live in Alexandria, so I was emailed that survey. Gosh, I dunno; what color should the draperies on the Titanic have been?

karah 81p · 626 weeks ago

Completely black.

Willy · 626 weeks ago

Wont the opening of the Silver line also solidify Metro's stance that it is worse to live closer to the city? Ridership is already far too high so customers east of Ballston cannot board inbound rush hour trains. The same goes for those going outbound from Rosslyn at night. Additional riders will also negatively affect those on the Orange Line too. Might as well be 12mins apart when the first 3 trains you are confronted with are unboardable.

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Alice · 622 weeks ago

This is ridiculous. I already have to wait 10 min sometimes at Rosslyn for a Blue Line train DURING RUSH+. And I'm paying rush+ service for this? Not acceptable. It will definitely be more than 12 min once the Silver Line starts running, basically like taking the train during non-rush+ hours and having to wait 20 minutes for the next train to come. Great planning, WMATA.