Thursday, July 7, 2011

Early Details on Metro's New Cars




From C.H. Schmitt:
Metro is continuing to lay plans for its next generation of railcars – the 7000 series – and an early review shows planners seem to be getting some key things right.

Metro has been holding focus groups, and it recently briefed the WMATA Riders’ Advisory Council on plans for the new cars. According to Metro officials, the transit agency plans to bring 64 of the new cars into service by the end of 2013, with an initial option for another 64, followed by an option for 300 more to replace the first cars in the fleet, the 1000 series. After that, there could be even more, to expand the fleet.

Here’s a rundown on what they said about features important to riders:

Seats: First off, they’ll be transverse, like now, rather than bench-style, along the sides. But the best news: Not cloth! (Some will recall recent news reports on the disgusting crud that inhabits cloth seats.) The final design isn’t set yet, officials said. The goal is a polyurethane material that resembles leather, and which would have a more “foamy” feel while also not getting as warm. If that doesn’t prove to be possible, the fallback is vinyl, similar to today.

Flooring: Carpeting is gone. Replacing it will be a kind of industrial grade plastic/vinyl called “resilient” flooring, which officials say is easier to maintain and a lot cleaner.

Noise: Even without carpet to buffer sound, there will be no greater noise inside the car when trains hit higher speeds.

No audio ads: This is great news for many folks who feared being a captive audience. The new cars will have video screens, and thus perhaps video advertisements. But they will have no audio capability, so talking ads aren’t going to happen.

Color scheme: So far, there are two concepts. “Business Elegance” is bluish, which Metro officials say creates an illusion of being a bigger space. This scheme has a dark, blue-speckled floor with white walls, and otherwise is blue. “Subtle Signature” is more a mix of gray and blue tones. It has a dark, red-speckled floor with white walls, and otherwise is grayish-blue. There will be no brown or yellow.

Announcements: Will be recorded.

Air conditioning: Metro’s acting chief engineer promises it will be better. The big issue now is loss of Freon coolant through leakage in lines, he said. The new cars will have sealed lines and be roof-mounted, and should be more reliable.

Other: Lots of handholds. More stanchions to grab onto along the rows of seats. No defined arm-rests are planned. There is to be a V-shaped divide between two adjoining seatbacks to delineate the space for those who want space.

Needs changing: One design Metro showed off has half-height screens at the doors. But the screens are transparent. A Metro official said that’s because people like to look down through the length of the car, but that seems like a non-issue to me. More importantly, too much stuff gets squished up against the current screens, inches from a seated rider’s face. One can only imagine the visual if the screen is transparent. If you know what I mean.

(C.H. Schmitt is a member of the Riders’ Advisory Council.)
Other items:
Metro urged to buy fewer 7000-series cars (WaPo)
Gray backs above ground Dulles station (WaPo)

Comments (68)

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The seats should definitely be bench style. So much more room, plus easier for peple to MOVE TO THE CENTER OF THE CAR!!!!
Keeping transverse seating is a huge mistake.
We WANT bench seating you jackasses! Your own studies show riderships continual growth. Bench seating provides room for an extra 20-30 passengers per car. Don't be stupid Sarles.
Corruption Abound's avatar

Corruption Abound · 720 weeks ago

Why are they so determined to have transverse seating over bench??? Less room, harder to move to the center, less seats available, not to mention with bench style your back is to the wall you can see everything going on around you. This is extremely important with the mobs of ruffians that seem to plague the WMATA system these days.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
They are probably so determined to have transverse seating because some Crony @ metro has a relative who manufactures those types of seats.
Metro Ryder's avatar

Metro Ryder · 720 weeks ago

Good points.
Metro Ryder's avatar

Metro Ryder · 720 weeks ago

I like traverse seating. I like being able to sit when my commute is an hour +.
4 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Shortrider's avatar

Shortrider · 720 weeks ago

I also like being able to have something to hold on to, since I'm too short to reach the rails at the top.
I think you'd still be able to find a seat if they were bench style.
Metro Ryder's avatar

Metro Ryder · 720 weeks ago

I may be changing my opinion. I like @corruption abound's point that you can see what's going on around you.
The main advantage of bench seating is that it is much easier to get people on and off the trains. All of our commutes would be shorter if trains didn't have to wait as long at each stop for people to make their way off.
Interesting - they're not taking the time to connect all the married quads together with bendy corridors? That's unfortunate - you end up with such a more spacious feel - and a half-dozen extra spots per articulation. See Montreal's for instance.
MadAsHeck's avatar

MadAsHeck · 720 weeks ago

What is Metro's defense for transverse seating? In comments on this, other blogs, discussions with friends and coworkers, nearly everyone wants bench seating.

Throw a couple transverse at the ends of the car for people like Metro Ryder above who has an especially long commute, but why not open the middle sections of the car to bench seating.

What is the explanation???
4 replies · active 688 weeks ago
Metro Ryder's avatar

Metro Ryder · 720 weeks ago

nice compromise! mostly bench with a few transverse. Why doesn't metro think of this?
This makes perfect sense. Also by opening up the middle of the car more vertical poles can be placed to accomodate shorter commuters. Some have posted that the bench seat would have people sliding during the hard braking so often experienced in manual control of the trains. Why not add an arm rest every 3rd or 4th seat? At very least it will save the life of the poor bastard at the very end of the bench from bearing the load of everyone in sudden braking? Another benefit of the partiton would be to make it less comfortable for those idiots who will attempt to use the bench as a cot.
MadAsHeck's avatar

MadAsHeck · 720 weeks ago

That is a great idea. Like in parks and airports, to discourage people from lying across multiple seats to create their own bed. Never seen it in a bench-style subway, but it makes perfect sense!
If you're going to have arm rests, they should be movable - as they are in most airplanes, for example. So if you sit down and don't like that rest there, move it upward. And there shouldn't be any on the end of a transverse seat set, either - it really does make it tougher to get out of the seat.
Traverse seating also allows people to sit in the direction of travel. Some people who rarely/occasionally use Metro (think tourists) might get motion sickness by sitting perpenidcularly to the direction of travel. Also, with any sudden brake usage, bench seating almost guarantees that you'll slide into someone else.

Personally (as someone who uses Metro and the Fairfax Connector regularly), the only thing I have against bench seating is the crushing effect of having people on both sides of you while seated, especially when those people take up more room than they should. I'm not talking about large people here--I'm talking about those who spread their legs out and such. If you've ever been in the back of the bus with five people on the rear bench (or even the three-seat benches in the front or middle), you know what I'm talking about when it comes to being in those middle seats.
12 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Actually, only half the car is facing the direction of the tunnel. The other half is going backwards. I've taken subways with bench seating, and never had a problem with them, even when I was a kid and had motion sickness.
And since you haven't, obviously no one else has.
You're right. I hear reports that subway systems that have the bench style seating cause people to throw up all over the system. Its an epidemic for those subways that made the idiotic choice to install bench style seating.

Meanwhile, back on planet earth....
Just because people don't get physically sick doesn't mean that they don't suffer dizziness, nausea, vertigo, etc. Subway systems around the world always have "sick customer" delays, like DC. They don't publish the cause. But I'm surprised that you have inside sources at each of these organizations that told you it wasn't due to the seating arrangements.
Have you ever ridden one of those trains with the bench style seating?
Do you know people can get sick on the transverse seating going backwards as well?
Do you know how many offloaded trains due to crowding bench style seating would save?
Bench style seating isn't that bad. Man up.
Yes, I have. Many times.

And yes, people can get sick going backwards, but they have the option to go forward-facing on transverse seating.

And don't tell me to "man up", asshole. I didn't say that *I* have a problem with them. Learn how to read.
They don't have the option to go forward facing if all the forward facing seats are taken, you dope! Forward facing seating is usually the first to go.
Wait, can't people just stand facing forward if they're going to get sick sitting sideways?
Sure, they can. And they probably would and it probably wouldn't be an issue. The only thing I'm saying is that with transverse seating, there is an OPTION that they can ride facing forward in a seat. Many, many people get on the train at endpoints and board empty trains. Bench seating - which I personally have no issue with and would welcome - would take away that option from people. Now, if people suffer from motion sickness, they can board an empty train at the endpoint and have to stand the entire ride because there is no forward facing seat.

My personal recommendation would be to mix the two. Have transverse seating between the ends of the car and the first door with bench seating between the doors.
Yeah do you realize how much space this seating takes up? It makes the trains much more crowded than they really are, and since the middle is so narrow, nobody wants to go towards the center of the car. I can't believe how hard this is for you to grasp other than the fact you have your panties in a bunch about motion sickness.
MadAsHeck's avatar

MadAsHeck · 720 weeks ago

Millions of people ride the NYC subway, which has bench seating. When the brakes are applied, yes, they might brush against the person next to them. Big deal. I'll take that over not being able to get on or off the cars.

As for the people who who spread their legs, we can't design a system around people being dicks. If there is an open seat between people who have legs spread, I'm gonna say "excuse me" and sit down.
Good points. After doing some searching in Wikipedia, I have to wonder what type of bench seating would work best--those with a "non-partitioned" bench or those that look like a bunch of seats strung together (like you'd find with current seating on our rails and buses). At least with the latter, I can feel like a certain amount of space is alloted to me and not to be taken as extra space for the person next to me.

Also, being shorter than the average person, I would hope that in a bench seating environemnt, there would more center poles or other accommodations for having more than one column of people between the benches.
wobblyrider's avatar

wobblyrider · 720 weeks ago

No center ceiling rail = a lot of stumbling around when things get crowded
Shortrider's avatar

Shortrider · 720 weeks ago

I like transverse seating. It gives us short people something to hold on to.
hrh king friday 13's avatar

hrh king friday 13 · 720 weeks ago

Does it come with brakes?
LoxyBrown's avatar

LoxyBrown · 720 weeks ago

Anti-cloth seats, or anything that can be ruined by being torn or peed on. The cost of maintenance is too high, cleaning is difficult, and the plastic seats they have now are adequate. Why add something that is going to end up being so expensive?
Soylent Green Line's avatar

Soylent Green Line · 720 weeks ago

I don't care if the new cars have traverse seating, bench seating, or individual hammocks. If it actually happens by the end of 2013, that would be more than enough for me.
3 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Soylent Green Line's avatar

Soylent Green Line · 720 weeks ago

I should add that I have little hope of seeing any new cars in place before 2013. It will be interesting to see what will happen first - new Metro cars or the completion of the H St trolley.

Bets, anyone?
My bet would be on the H St. trolley coming online first. We know for sure that Metro is FUBAR, but the streetcar is being run by a new entity, which has not had time to demonstrate its incompetence, so there is actually some small chance that they might deliver on time.
Soylent Green Line's avatar

Soylent Green Line · 720 weeks ago

I dunno, the H St trolley is entirely within Washington, DC which implies DC government involvement... it'll be an interesting race to see who exactly is more incompetent.
Did they even consult the riders at all when making these decisions? Bench seating would make it so much easier to move in and out of the cars. Additionally, it will eliminate the problem of having to clamber over people in order to get in and out of the window seats in the traverse seating setup. Bench seating is better all the way around. @ Shortrider, I'm sure the short people of New York City find a way to manage- they won't eliminate vertical poles entirely.

Also, I'm all in favor of hard plastic seating that can be sprayed down at the end of the day with disinfectant and a pressure hose. I ride from the end of a line, so I have a long commute, but I'd take a hard seat if they could clean it better.
sorry--OT: anyone know what's going on with the faregates? last night all the gates at twinbrook were out of service; same this morning. then when i got to metro center this morning, THEIR gates had just gone out of service. i don't mind riding for free at all--just curious.
The seating doesn't bother me but I'm not sure how I feel about the flooring. Last week, I was lucky to get a vinyl floored car. Someone spilled a soda on the floor (enforcing the rules is a debate for another topic) and it ran everywhere. This was at L'Enfant. By time the train got to King Street, it was a mess. The floor was sticky everywhere, people were tracking it around the car, etc. At least on carpet, the puddle would have been mostly contained.
Traverse seating is nice because people have the option of sitting in the direction the train is going. However, the seats that @metroopensdoors just tweeted make no sense. One person will take one of those seats. God forbid it is an obese person or one of the men who seem to think they have the largest penis in the world.

I agree that the way trains brake with manual control will cause many of us to run into one another, but it will maximize space and with the way the trains run, I think this is paramount.
5 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
First, don't be an asshole. As a 6'4" man, I often sit with my legs apart because they are really long. It is physically painful to sit straight-legged with my kneecaps against the seat in front of me. Every bump feels like getting kicked in the knees. So yes, I sit with my legs angled because there is more room that way. I'm sorry it offends you but I assure you that I'm not the only one and it has nothing to do with my penis, nor am I coming on to you.

Second, an obese person would take up just as much room on a bench seat as they would on a transverse seat. If an obese person takes up twice as much space as an average person, the same space will be lost. If they sit on a seat that fits two, it will only fit one. If they sit on a bench that fits 12, it will only fit 11.
You know, you could always stand.
Right, because God forbid I'm comfortable. I get on at Franconia-Springfield. Usually, I don't have a seat mate until Pentagon City. Should I stand the entire ride or just from Pentagon City?
The image that was tweeted was traverse seating. The only benefit I attributed to traverse seating is the direction.

I am for bench seating.
Then Bench seating makes even more sense for you! You don't take up 2 seats like an one of those assholes who think they bought some sort of first class ticket to ride the metro! Why would you support transverse seating? So you can take up 2 seats like a grade A asshole?
The design as shown in the photo still sucks because there aren't enough places for short people to hang on to when they're stuck in the open area by the doors. Reaching up to the rail along the ceiling isn't an option for anyone under 5'4" or people with shoulder problems. And the horizontal bars near the doors are useless because people tend to use them as butt rests, instead of holding onto them with their hands.
6 replies · active 720 weeks ago
That's an older mockup. I asked Metro for a newer one, but they wouldn't give me one.

One difference is they have apparently dumped the cloth seat idea.
Shorter than 5'4" ? I'm 5'7", and I still can't comfortably use the ceiling rails in the existing cars (I do have some shoulder issues, but even with healthy shoulders, I doubt I could hold that ceiling rail for very long). I totally agree, they really need more handholds for short people.
new pic via metro
Yikes -- that's even worse than the old design, in terms of a lack of hand-holds for shorter people.

I realize that Metro doesn't like to put poles near the doors because people tend to crowd around them and not move to the center of the cars, but those vast empty spaces near the doors are going to fill up at rush hour, no matter what. You've got to give people something to hang on to.

The rails that run along the ceilings should at least have those straps that hang down -- and not those metal handles that flip up, which are useless. This is a stupid design.
+1,000,000 to more vertical holding options. Yesterday, I was in one of the newer cars (you know, with NO vertical poles near the door and those silly L-shaped things on the wall by the door). It wasn't THAT crowded, but there were no open seats and the center of the aisle was full. So, I was left near the door with LEANING MAN. He was leaning half-body on the vertical portion of that wall pole. So, being the...ahem...that I am, I reached right in and grabbed the pole...AND HE DIDN'T budge. Not only are there no vertical poles until you get into the aisle of these cars...there are no straps or metal grab-ons. Not that the straps do much...because they're not affixed, they slide around during hard stops, leaving you lurching around the car almost as badly as if you weren't holding onto anything. So I was left with my arm pressed up against this man, my elbow being jammed the wrong way on hard stops when he lurched into it, and narrowly holding onto my balance for about 6 stops until some seats opened up. FUN!

Look, I get moving people away from the doors, but eliminating any possibility of standing in that vast amount of valuable floor space for anyone under 5'10 (I'm 5'5 with slight shoulder issues - only one shoulder is an issue, so if I can get into a position where I can use the other arm it would work if I could reach - and the overhead bars are a no-go for me), and, it looks like with these new cars, even eliminating the OVERHEAD bars in the door area is just plain dumb. Go with bench seating, drop the screens, and give people something to hold on to. Add vertical poles, lower the height of the overhead bars a couple of inches, and add more of the fixed metal grabs.
what is really brilliant about these new cars is that they CAN'T be used with any of the other cars in the fleet!

Ah Metro! Your stupidity never ceases to amaze.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
you people are letting metro lull you with dangling shiny objects again! the talk of seating and video screens are to deflect your attention from the real issues. these 7000 series are NOT compatible with any other cars and will not run on any line other than the silver line to dulles. period. they are in the process of building a separate garage at west falls church to do maintenance on them . they are 4 car trains instead of two cars trains. the belly pair will not have active propulsion systems. only braking, hvac and other essentials.
so the bottom line is that if and when a 7000 breaks down on the mainline and needs to be recovered by another train that train will have to a 7000 series train. so they cannot possibly run 7000's on any other line that has all the other series cars. not possible.
i suspect the train doors on the 7000's will be an issue as well. the engineers designing the cars say that this type of train has NEVER, and let me repeat that ,NEVER, had a door problem. let that soak in for a minute.
NotAllOfWMATASucks's avatar

NotAllOfWMATASucks · 720 weeks ago

It's probably better to make the painful switch now. The horror stories you hear about lack of parts and different models. The lowest contract bidding process they use to procure the cars has led to this problem. .Not to mention NTSB recommending Metro switch away from the oldest series at least.
seriously? so it would have to be an all-7000 series consist or nothing?

yeah, i can see some problems with that..
1 reply · active 720 weeks ago
Yes, this is true. All or none.
UNusability's avatar

UNusability · 720 weeks ago

In response to the new picture:

Coloring areas of the floor is a great idea!
A "douche zone" area of the floor in front of the doors would be helpful.

BUT
How does a color patch in front of the maps help?
Seriously, is this designer considering usability?
People WILL stand in front of maps to read them, they don't need a patch.

People do generally look at the ground when stepping over a gap.
A patch behind the door is an obvious sign to "clear this area". THAT is where it's needed, to tell people to GTFO of this area.

Good idea executed WMATA style.

Maybe it's nit-picking, but as a designer I'm frustrated. You'd think that whoever designed this... would have designed it.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Not having vertical bars is a bigger problem than having them created, sorry, but metrofail is strong on this one. Maybe train operators could hold the door open an extra 5-10 seconds when crowding is an issue, it's not like they're on time anyway. Those vertical bars near the doors are only usable by a couple people at best because they're too close to the door (sort of goes against the whole idea) and they're up against the wall, only letting 1/2 the number of people use them.

I'm fairly certain the people at metro making decisions like this don't actually ride metro or even bother to ask for input from those who do.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
If that's a wheelchair parking area, where is the device to lock in the wheels?
Is it just the perspective of the new picture, or do the center doors on the new cars not line up? That could solve the "holding on to something in the big space" problem--just hold on to the bars opposite the set of doors, but then you might block the flow from the doors.
The reason that "move to the center of the car" is routinely ignored is simple. If you get on a car that has few people standing, you have little incentive to go to the center of the car. Because then you stand in a less-comfortable area (can't lean against the side of the car), and what if virtually no one gets on after you? Then there you are, standing in the middle of the car for no good reason. Then there are the people who have strollers or big bags. They don't want to stand in the middle of the car, because they'll take up too much space. Finally, even if you stand in the middle of a car and the car then becomes packed, you have to push and shove your way through a lot of people to reach the door to exit - meaning you might not get to exit. Yes, you can inch your way closer stop by stop, but it's just not always that easy.
We need bench seating WMATA! If you are in the third row during rush hour its an act of god to get out of the doors before they close. If you HAVE to have a few transfers seating make them light blue and for elderly/handicap.

Better yet, just copy the new train out at Dullas, few seats tons of room nice center poles. Its what WMATA should be.

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