Unsuck DC Metro: Station Manager Ambivalent about Gun-Toting Teen

Monday, July 18, 2011

Station Manager Ambivalent about Gun-Toting Teen

From Kenneth:

I'm a long time Metro rider. I take the Yellow and Red lines from Alexandria (Braddock Road) to Silver Spring each day.

It is terrible to ride nowadays.

I don't see how anyone can tell me Metro is improving.

However, one of my dealings with this transit agency, which took place on the evening of June 23, really takes the cake.

I was jogging at around 8:10 in Alexandria, when I came across a youth who was carrying a handgun in the waist of his pants.

He was headed in the direction of the Braddock Road station on a footpath adjacent to Buchanan St., so I thought it would be best to report this to the King Street Metro station manager, since that was the closest place I could report such a thing.

I sprinted to the station, and was met with complete ambivalence and laziness.

When I told the manager that a youth with a gun was headed in the direction of the Braddock Road station, he said muttered a bored "yeah."

He then said that he'd "take care of it."

He remained stationary in his chair.

I told him I could describe the youth, but he said nothing.

He then motioned for me to leave the station, saying again that he would "take care of it."

Whenever I have dealt with law enforcement officials, they want to know details.

Hell, when I've reported suspicious behavior to other station managers, they've asked questions. This station manager did nothing. He actually reclined in his chair during the conversation!

I ended up running over to a Hilton hotel nearby the King Street Metro, where the desk clerk called the Alexandria police department. An officer arrived within about three minutes and took my information.

Such ambivalence about a youth with a gun, walking in the direction of another station (in a residential neighborhood) is heinous.

I reported this as a complaint to Metro the next day. I genuinely doubt I will get any response.

Other items:
"Fired" (Examiner)

Comments (56)

Logging you in...

Dashboard | Edit profile | Logout

Logged in as

+13 Vote up Vote down

union man · 714 weeks ago

"Not my job."

+7 Vote up Vote down

Kat · 714 weeks ago

FYI: It is not against the law to open carry in many parts of Virginia, even on the Metro. I can't remember if the Braddock Road station is one of those areas.

I do appreciate your willingness to follow through on this, however.

6 replies · active less than 1 minute ago

+6 Vote up Vote down

anonymouse · 714 weeks ago

Open carry is indeed legal in VA, and as far as I'm aware, this includes metro stations in VA. The metro station manager probably should have informed Kenneth of this rather than acting all blase, though.

+9 Vote up Vote down

dcn8v · 714 weeks ago

True- since 2004 it has been legal to open carry in VA (not sure if it's allowed on Metro or not). However, it is illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to transport a handgun in the Commonwealth except for specific circumstances (such as going to or from a shooting range while with an adult). So depending on the definition of "youth" in the description above this could definitely have been illegal.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+c...

+4 Vote up Vote down

Kat · 714 weeks ago

This has been a grey area that Metro has refused to issue a statement on, despite numerous questions about carrying weapons on Metro during the hearings on the open bag searches.

+3 Vote up Vote down

F'n JD · 714 weeks ago

Tucked in your waistband is not open carry.

+6 Vote up Vote down

VACOP · 714 weeks ago

Yes, tucked in your waistband IS open carry. It could very well have been secured in an "inside the waistband" holster. VA accepts this as open carry as enough of the firearm is visible. However, should the shirt come untucked and cover a portion of the weapon, it is now considered concealed.

And yes, it is legal to carry an firearm on METRO in VA either openly, or with a valid CCP

-1 Vote up Vote down

CPB · 713 weeks ago

False. As long as it is 1) visible to a common observer; and 2) immediately identifiable as a firearm, it counts as open carry.

+8 Vote up Vote down

dcn8v · 714 weeks ago

Wow. Just... wow. Thanks for your persistence!

1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago

0 Vote up Vote down

David · 713 weeks ago

Persistence in reporting a legal activity?

-6 Vote up Vote down

DevilsAdvocate · 714 weeks ago

Oh my god, he reclined his chair?!?

I actually don't see how this is a Metro problem. Just because the guy was walking in a metro station's general vicinity doesn't mean he was going there. Yeah, the station manager sounds lazy but I'm not sure policing gun-toting youths on the street are part of his job. And if they did move heaven and earth every time something like this happened than they'd be less attentive to problems actually occurring in the stations. Sounds like going straight to the Alexandria cops in the first place would have been the simplest solution.

1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago

+3 Vote up Vote down

The More You Know... · 714 weeks ago

First how often do you think things like that happen? Second it may not be a direct problem for metro but it is a problem; the person was walking towards another metro station and even if he wasn't it's a possible crime and should be reported. If he was busy and the station was flooded with people he wouldn't have been reclining in his chair, so it's pretty safe to assume that he didn't have any other pressing matters to attend to - this is simple laziness and the "not my job" attitude that is all over the WMATA system. They say that "safety is our #1 concern" but when they can do something that matters in a substantial way they fail miserably.

-5 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 714 weeks ago

How do you know it was a real gun?

+6 Vote up Vote down

Kevin · 714 weeks ago

Years ago I was riding the Orange Line to Vienna in the evening (probably around 9:00'ish). I used the Intercom to report an individual who was acting strangely and who also had a large buck knife tucked into the waist of his pants. They stopped the train at Rosslyn, the Station Manager boarded and when she confronted the passenger who disclosed that he actually had TWO large knives. She asked him to put them away (which he did), and we went merrily on our way. Thanks Metro!

0 Vote up Vote down

guest · 714 weeks ago

A little before the 4th of July I saw a kid going through a Metro station carrying a rocket-shaped package of fireworks, at leat three feet long, prominently labeled as such. He walked past several Metro workers and no one even gave him a second look.

4 replies · active less than 1 minute ago

+2 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 714 weeks ago

I think those are legal in DC. If he was in Maryland he should have been arrested.

+1 Vote up Vote down

RGG · 714 weeks ago

I don't believe Metro allows them though. "Flammable Items" are a no-no. He could have been booted out.

0 Vote up Vote down

Dave · 714 weeks ago

As long as there's not a big lollipop scale on the other end of the platform, he shouldn't have to worry.

0 Vote up Vote down

David · 713 weeks ago

Good, we have enough government employees micromanaging our lives.

+2 Vote up Vote down

dsfsdf · 714 weeks ago

I'm surprised here how many people are caught up in the right to carry/not Metro's problem. Really? The Alexandria police seemed to care.

Metro personnel should have called the police immediately. Someone thought the situation was potentially dangerous enough, and there should have been some follow through by a "public servant."

Metro sucks

4 replies · active less than 1 minute ago

+13 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 714 weeks ago

"Metro personnel should have called the police immediately."

No, the person who saw the guy with the gun should have called the police immediately.

+1 Vote up Vote down

David · 713 weeks ago

For what? Engaging in legal activities? Should I report every driver I see because they could run someone over if the mood struck them?

+3 Vote up Vote down

anonymouse · 714 weeks ago

The Alexandria police took down the info. That's not quite the same as them really caring. The issue of right to carry is very relevant here; the cops cannot spend their days running after people who have apparently broken no laws.

+4 Vote up Vote down

VACOP · 714 weeks ago

APD responded because they had to. That doesn't mean they thought it was a valid complaint. Do you know how often LEOs in VA get calls about guns because most aren't aware they can be carried openly? If this citizen was so concerned, they should have contacted the PD immediately, not waited and reported it to another party...

0 Vote up Vote down

dsfsdf · 714 weeks ago

2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago

+1 Vote up Vote down

GDopplerXT · 714 weeks ago

Please explain why this is Metro's problem. The police would care because one of their primary functions is to enforce the law; yet it's not even clear that any law was being broken. And it doesn't sound like it (whatever "it" was) was happening on or near (relatively speaking) Metro property, so I'm not sure how this reflects poorly on Metro. Maybe on that station manager as a person, but not on the system.

It's one thing to criticize Metro for not doing things that it is supposed to be doing. It is an unfair stretch to say it sucks because it is not doing things that have nothing to do with it. Please stay focused; if Metro sucks so much then you should have plenty of ammo without resorting to flimsy tales like this one.

0 Vote up Vote down

jim · 714 weeks ago

I agree with you 100 percent! about the metro in DC

+2 Vote up Vote down

Eh, non? · 714 weeks ago

The other day I was walking into Clarendon Metro on the Orange Line and I saw someone practicing their First Amendment rights of free speech, protest, and assembly. I immediately called the cops because they could have said something scary or mean.

1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago

+1 Vote up Vote down

David · 713 weeks ago

Hahaha, zing!

+5 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 714 weeks ago

Metro transit police is 202 962 2121 - plug the # into your cell. Also, you can call 911 and Alexandria police would have come to your location to take your description. Did you file a police report with Alexadria Police? I used to ride from Braddock to Tenleytown on Yellow/Red; Braddock can be a bit deserted at 0800hrs or even twighlight+ PM, especially if the 10A/10B/AT-3,4, etc. buses are not on time. Echo comments above; thanks for reporting this and your follow up.

3 replies · active less than 1 minute ago

0 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 714 weeks ago

Apologies- missed the paragraph where you called police at the hotel. Good work, stay safe.

+5 Vote up Vote down

VACop · 714 weeks ago

There would be no report to take. No police officer would take a report for a citizen carrying a weapon openly in VA unless some law were being broken. It appears none were broken in this case...

+1 Vote up Vote down

ex-Alexandria PO · 714 weeks ago

The story was of a "youth" carrying a gun in his waistband. Youth is a term typically used to name a person less than 18 years of age. If the "youth" appeared to be under 18 years of age then it should be investigated.

-1 Vote up Vote down

Ted · 714 weeks ago

It's really pathetic that you were met with such indifference. No matter what, you went above and beyond and did the right thing.

It's frightening to think that we indeed place our lives in the hands of lazy, incompetent people like this each day when riding Metro.

If you ever come across a situation such as this in the future, simply call the local police. I cringe at the thought of how Metro will handle another major crisis.

+3 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 714 weeks ago

Meanwhile, on another blog:
http://dcist.com/2011/07/wmatas_forgiveness_knows...

+2 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 714 weeks ago

How is someone supposed to know that a person carrying a gun has a permit? Serious question. Am I supposed to assume that a person carrying a gun is legal? Or assume that they're illegal? Should I ask? Does their permit have to be displayed somehow? What if the gun tucked into a waistband as opposed to in a proper holster?

I don't get it.

12 replies · active less than 1 minute ago

+1 Vote up Vote down

crucible · 714 weeks ago

I've had a VA CCW permit for eight years or so now, so if I may: you don't know if they have a permit, or that they are legal (and you can say the same thing about every person you see on the Metro for that matter in terms of who they are and what they may, or my not be carrying).

Open carry is legal however without a permit, though its pretty much guaranteed to get some attention. Generally, if police are called, they will stop and question the person carrying, and once determined that they are simply citizens who mean no harm, will allow them to go about their business. (I'm not an open carry guy for these and other reasons, and I guarantee you'll never know when I do conceal carry.) By in large, most police departments within the Commonwealth are aware of the legality.

+2 Vote up Vote down

crucible · 714 weeks ago

(Cont)

In my opinion, generally good guys have and use holsters (open carry and concealed) and those that are questionable or bad, usually don't. Yes, certain firearms can be put into one's waistband and held there in a pinch, but this is generally is an ad-hoc and temporary method at best, and one that I'd say is dangerous (to the user) to say nothing of the instability of it all (bend over to tie your shoe and whoops!)

Where it is advantageous is to someone who...wants quick access and also may want to get rid of it quickly without the tell tale evidence of an empty holster. The latter isn't something that are average conscientious CCW'er will have as a goal. There are exceptions to every rule of course.

+2 Vote up Vote down

crucible · 714 weeks ago

(Cont- again)

But common sense should rule the day: if you see a man (or woman) with a holstered pistol in the furniture store shopping with his wife and children and he looks, behaves and otherwise seems like a good guy, then a duck is a duck. That person knows what to expect in open carrying, and despite the potential harassment, chooses to do so anyway to protect themselves and thier loved ones.

But, if you see some 18 year old (min 21 in VA btw), tough-guy wannbe, gang-banging dressed dude show off a a pistol tucked in his waistband, then a duck might very well be a duck there too.

IMO, etc.

C-

0 Vote up Vote down

dcn8v · 714 weeks ago

Does your concealed permit allow you to carry across state lines into DC or Maryland? Or does it only apply to Virginia?

0 Vote up Vote down

crucible · 714 weeks ago

No, it's not valid in Maryland or DC as they (especially they) don't generally issue to thier citizens, let alone recognize other state's permits.

The idea is called "reciprocity", and if another state reconizes Virginia's, then Virginia has reciprocity with them and recognizes thier permits as well (there are a good deal of states that do this). This is based on any number of factors to include common training requirements, successful criminal background checks, etc.

What doesn't change is the laws appicable to that state-they might be different but they still ahve to be obeyed. For example in North Carolina, I can carry, but I have to inform law enforcement officers that I am doing so if stopped, while I don't in Virginia (as they already know when they pull your license plate because it's). Among others.

+4 Vote up Vote down

VACop · 714 weeks ago

A police officer may attempt to chat with the person, but the officer has no reason to detain (considered a seizure under the 4th amendment) said individual merely for carrying a firearm openly in VA. The citizen can voluntarily offer up information, but he/she is not required to. Just because it "looks odd" isn't enough to investigate further- that doesn't constitute "reasonable suspicion" that a crime was, is, or is about to be committed.

And one may carry openly in VA at 18, Crucible. 21 is for a CCP

+1 Vote up Vote down

eed017 · 714 weeks ago

Just because it "looks odd" isn't enough to investigate further.

So, when Metro says, "If you see something, say something", we should just belt up, is that it?

0 Vote up Vote down

Anon · 714 weeks ago

You are obviously missing the point...

+1 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 714 weeks ago

In VA you do not need a permit for open carry. If someone is over 18 and the gun is outwardly visible, it is perfectly legal.

Now, what constitutes 'outwardly visible' is a matter of some debate and can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Generally if a gun is in a waistband or an inside-the-pants holster it is considered concealed, which requires a permit

+2 Vote up Vote down

dcn8v · 714 weeks ago

There are so many rules and regulations that it can get awfully grey, awfully fast. I wish a VA law enforcement officer would weigh in on this. When are they allowed to ask questions about the weapon?

With respect to the holster, I believe that inside the waistband holsters are allowed because it shows enough of the gun to show the weapon for what it really is, pursuant to the VA code found here: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+c...

But you have to be awfully careful that your shirt doesn't come partly untucked and cover any part of the gun- then that would be considered concealed carrying, and you'd need a permit for that. Most people who open-carry do not opt for the inside-waistband holster because it's too easy for part of the weapon to become concealed by a bunching of shirt fabric.

+6 Vote up Vote down

VACop · 714 weeks ago

Some clarification from a VA LEO...

MOST people 18 or over can carry a handgun openly provided they are not prohibited by law (there are several provisions- I won't bother to name them here)

Guns must be carried in a holster, and that includes an inside the waistband holster (it's not considered concealed as long as the shirt is tucked in).

In VA, a police officer cannot detain someone just because they are carrying a firearm as it is legal. They can't even question the individual about it if it appears to be carried in accordance to VA Law. An officer can attempt to speak with the citizen in a consensual encounter and he/she can provide further information if they like, but it is not required by law and they remain "free to go". Unless some other criminal act is observed, the citizen can continue on their way.

Hope that helps.

0 Vote up Vote down

Michael · 713 weeks ago

Open carry in VA is completely legal. You don't need a "permit". FYI.

So yes, you are to assume it is legal because it is.

+1 Vote up Vote down

Justin · 714 weeks ago

Kenneth: While I applaud your actions, don't use the PC term "youth" when describing this person. I hear "youth" and "unruly youths" in the media constantly when referring to these little sh*ts that will soon enter the world of crime and incarceration. I actually saw a TV news "reporter" last week coach a woman to use the term "unruly youths" when she was describing a vicious attack by a mob of violent delinquents. Of everything I have to pay for with my tax dollars, the least objectionable line item would be more prisons or detention camps for these animals.

+1 Vote up Vote down

help · 714 weeks ago

I think it's normal to expect that a Metro employee would at least show some concern when a rider or someone obviously concerned about a situation takes the trouble to inform them.

This anecdote shows just how hampered Metro is by some of its workers.

+2 Vote up Vote down

thebeltwayoutsider 35p · 714 weeks ago

Folks, this is a non-issue. ANYONE can open carry in the commonwealth at the age of 18: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+c...

Metro letter answering "Can I carry a gun"? question: http://vaguninfo.com/images/METROLetter.jpg

1 reply · active 714 weeks ago

+2 Vote up Vote down

VACop · 714 weeks ago

Well, not ANYONE. There are provisions in VA law that restrict certain persons from carrying.

0 Vote up Vote down

VeggieTart · 714 weeks ago

Maybe the manager couldn't do anything unless the individual was in a station or entering a station/on Metro property. If that's the case, then the manager should have said something.

The person carrying the gun could be an adult who looks young. I won't post my utterly mean thought about someone who carries a gun in a waistband holster.

+3 Vote up Vote down

thebeltwayoutsider 35p · 714 weeks ago

Very true VACop, I did make a blanket statement there... my apologies. Those who are felons (AKA "prohibited" persons), drug addicts, those with protective orders against them (Lautenberg amendment), involuntary mental committals, or persons currently under the influence of alcohol (there are more restrictions as well - this is not meant to be a definitive list) cannot carry a firearm. There are also location based restrictions such as no carry inside a courthouse, the secured areas of a detention facility, the secure areas of an airport, K-12 schools, etc that one needs to be aware of.

What's not known in this story is the age of the "youth" the OP saw walking with the gun. Also not known is the behavior and dress of the youth. Was the youth dressed professionally and using a proper IWB holster? Was the youth dressed in "colors" and using only his belt to hold the firearm? etc etc.

If I saw a "gangsta" youth carrying in an unsafe way I'd get the police involved in a heartbeat. But if it's a responsible looking person carrying with a proper holster I'd ignore it. This IS Virginia and some folks do open carry in the summer (myself included) due to heat issues. This also could have been someone attempting to make a political statement. It all boils down to how is the person dressed and how are they acting. That is what in my mind determines whether I get law enforcement involved.

+2 Vote up Vote down

Elizabeth · 714 weeks ago

Thanks for reporting it, Kenneth- most people here are getting caught up on the wrong issue of "right to carry" when the issue was, you saw something suspicious on a run, obviously without your cell phone (otherwise you would have called the police from said cell phone, instead of a hotel), went to someone who had the ability to call or let you call the authorities, and were completely ignored- and the young person, despite the contested "right" to carry, set off alarm bells in your head. You followed Metro's much aired "see something, say something" policy, and were treated as an inconvenience. Had something happened 1/2 later on the Metro, people would have been up in arms that no one reported seeing a young person with a gun in the vicinity- good grief!

0 Vote up Vote down

Anon. · 714 weeks ago

Kenneth- I assume you transfer to the red line at Gallery Place to get to Silver Spring. Do you mind sharing what you dislike about that portion of the commute? My commute currently ends at Farragut North (originating from the west side of the red line) but I was considering a job out in Silver Spring.